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Revision of the Character Score System

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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Kestral » November 27th, 2009, 6:10 pm

Grayfox wrote:Good idea Kestral.

I am backing him up on that. It seems to be a better way to score things along with in-game days. But then again, keeping the day system may work too. However, people can wait through days. The hours are the things that count.

Something I totally forgot-- the whole days passed thing. :o
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Sithis » January 31st, 2010, 5:21 am

I like the day system. Personally, I would also recommend the following:
-Core Stats (CS) should be added together (percentage-wise)and multiply the total score.
-Magicka (M), Health (H), and Fatigue (F) add up together.
-Locations (L) found add to total score (Multiply total locations by 5).
-Score is multiplied by your current number of Oblivion gates (OG) closed (divided by 5)
-Score multiplied by a third of the player's current level (LVL)
-Add 10% of the monetary value of current equipment to the score (E).

That's all I can think of right now.

Example:
Level 9
Health: 140
Magicka: 100
Fatigue: 200

STR:50
WIL:50
LUCK: 50
SPD: 50
END: 50
PER: 50
AGL: 50
INT: 50

Monetary Value of Current Equipment: 3000
15 Locations found
10 Oblivion Gates closed

Equation: {.33LV}{.2OG}{CS/100}[(.10E)+(5L)+M+H+F]

So: {.33 *15}*{.20*10}*{400/100}*[(.10*3000)+(5*15)+100+140+200]

5*2*4*[300+75+100+140+200]
40*[815]
=32600 points

What do you think?
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Tom » February 1st, 2010, 4:11 pm

That is very well-thought out. In fact, that is the best concept I have seen proposed so far yet. Thank you for providing the equation for calculation, as well. I'll look into it further this week and see how it would work (just play around with it, test it, etc.). My only immediate concern would be the "Monetary Value of Current Equipment" statistic, as this cannot be easily and/or accurately collected by the player, plus there is no place in character profiles where this statistic can be entered. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on that particular point?
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Xavier » February 1st, 2010, 11:54 pm

I like your idea Sithis, really well thought out. Like Tom said, I'm not sure about the monetary value of current equipment, but maybe you could explain that part more.
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby josjie » February 4th, 2010, 5:18 pm

Here's my personal take on the character score system:

Days passed
boethias is #1 with 12356 days passed.
1 minute real time = 30 minutes game time
1 day = (60*24) 1440 minutes
48 minutes real time = 1 day game time
That means he has played for 593088 minutes = 9884,8 hours
That's just insane. I'm not accusing him of anything, it might've been a typo, but I think it's clear that this is impossible. Especially since he has only completed 48 quests and killed 678 enemies.

Mods
Image Has mods installed.
I think this key should be removed. If you use mods that change your stats (god items, Oblivion XP, OOO) it should be listed under exploits. There are also people (including me) who only use mods that improve textures, weather, landscapes etc. but people will still think I'm cheating when they see that I'm using mods.

Overall rank
Currently Dark is #1.
Days passed: 470 -> 376 hours
When I look at his stats he has 1,661,220 stolen items and he has completed a lot of quests.

How important is the "Days passed" stat? Imo it should be ignored. When you use fast travel, wait or sleep this all adds up which means it isn't very reliable and differs from person to person.
But more importantly: someone who has played for 200 hours isn't necessarily "better" than someone who has played for "only" 100 hours.

So overall rank should cover your primary stats (health/magicka/fatigue, attributes, skills) and some of your secondary stats:

1. Quests completed (A)
2. Creatures killed (B)
3. People killed (C)
4. Places found (D)
5. Oblivion gates shut (E)
6. Nirnroots found (F)
7. Artifacts found (G)

What about all the potions made, books read, locks picked, murders, fame etc. stats? Well, they depend on your build so I think we should ignore them. A mage will ignore most locks and just use a spell instead. It's easier to get infamy points than fame points so evil characters have an advantage here.

Here's an example of a character score formula:

Secondary stats
(A + B*X + C*X + D*Y + E + F + G)/7 = ?
Creatures killed, people killed and places found are multiplied because the stats really show how good you are. X > Y.

Primary stats
(Health + Magicka + Fatigue)/3 = X1
(Sum of all attributes)/8 = X2
(Sum of all skills)/21 = X3
X1+X2+X3 = ?

Score = ?+?

I'm not sure what to do with your level. A lvl 25 character will have a much easier time than lvl 50 character (with a good build).
And your maximum level depends on your build (for some people it's 48, for others 50-51) so maybe we should just ignore it. Your skills and attributes are more important IMO.

Best characters
Just an idea: the character names of the top 10/25 (overall rank) have a different text color.
For example:
Josjie

Exploits?
While it is always possible to modify your stats by using the console, you can ask people for a screenshot of their stats before they're accepted in the top 10/25 characters.
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Tom » February 4th, 2010, 11:33 pm

Thank you for your input as well, josjie. Since you touched on quite a few points in your post, I am going to follow up by responding to each of them respectively.

josjie wrote:Days passed
boethias is #1 with 12356 days passed.
1 minute real time = 30 minutes game time
1 day = (60*24) 1440 minutes
48 minutes real time = 1 day game time
That means he has played for 593088 minutes = 9884,8 hours
That's just insane. I'm not accusing him of anything, it might've been a typo, but I think it's clear that this is impossible. Especially since he has only completed 48 quests and killed 678 enemies.

That is definitely impossible, yes. Another interesting thing to note is that he disabled comments on that character's profile from the very beginning, leading one to believe that he knew his stats were false and he didn't want anyone to ridicule him about it. I've taken that character off the leaderboards for now, unless the character's author comes back and does something about it. However, he hasn't logged in since March 2009, so I doubt he's coming back.

josjie wrote:Mods
Image Has mods installed.
I think this key should be removed. If you use mods that change your stats (god items, Oblivion XP, OOO) it should be listed under exploits. There are also people (including me) who only use mods that improve textures, weather, landscapes etc. but people will still think I'm cheating when they see that I'm using mods.

That's actually a good point. Now that I look at it, most of the Mods that people have installed do not have a direct effect on their important statistics. Also, I can see how some would come to think that having Mods installed could be the same as using exploits, especially when they are marked on the leaderboards with stars which make them stand out. In light of this, I'll remove the blue "uses Mods" star from the key in the leaderboards soon. Also, just to note: characters that use exploits are hidden on the leaderboards by default. You have to select to show characters with exploits in order for them to be shown on the leaderboards. Just thought I would be sure to point out this fact.

josjie wrote:Overall rank
Currently Dark is #1.
Days passed: 470 -> 376 hours
When I look at his stats he has 1,661,220 stolen items and he has completed a lot of quests.

I've been quite suspicious of Dark's statistics, as well. The only thing that prevents me from taking action (removing the profile from the leaderboards/contacting the author) is that many of the statistics actually seem quite feasible, it's just that there are quite a few that seem highly unlikely. Dark also hasn't been updated since July 25, 2009 (the same day the profile was created), so I may consider removing him from the leaderboards in the near future.

josjie wrote:How important is the "Days passed" stat? Imo it should be ignored. When you use fast travel, wait or sleep this all adds up which means it isn't very reliable and differs from person to person.
But more importantly: someone who has played for 200 hours isn't necessarily "better" than someone who has played for "only" 100 hours.

I see you're point here. I wasn't really considering using Days Passed in the new equation for calculating character Score, but you do bring up a good reason why it should not be included.

josjie wrote:So overall rank should cover your primary stats (health/magicka/fatigue, attributes, skills) and some of your secondary stats:

1. Quests completed (A)
2. Creatures killed (B)
3. People killed (C)
4. Places found (D)
5. Oblivion gates shut (E)
6. Nirnroots found (F)
7. Artifacts found (G)

I agree that it should cover your primary stats. However, I think things such as Artifacts Found and Nirnroots Found are a bit too random of a statistic to be included in character Score calculation. Maybe not, but for people who aren't going around looking for artifacts or Nirnroots, it could hurt their Scores for no good reason.

josjie wrote:What about all the potions made, books read, locks picked, murders, fame etc. stats? Well, they depend on your build so I think we should ignore them. A mage will ignore most locks and just use a spell instead. It's easier to get infamy points than fame points so evil characters have an advantage here.

I understand your reasoning here. Such stats as these are a bit too random anyway. I was originally considering Fame as a good stat to throw in for calculation of Score, but your last sentence quoted above turned me away from doing that now. The last thing we want is for evil to prosper. ;)

josjie wrote:Here's an example of a character score formula:

Secondary stats
(A + B*X + C*X + D*Y + E + F + G)/7 = ?
Creatures killed, people killed and places found are multiplied because the stats really show how good you are. X > Y.

Is Places Found really a testament to how good a player/character is? I mean, it is commendable if you find a large number of places, but someone could dedicate one day to finding places and completely offset that statistic, thus raising their Score high above others who could actually be much better all around. Just my opinion, I still may include it in the calculation in some other way. By the way, when you put the variables X and Y in that equation, what values do X and Y represent? I'm a bit unsure about that.

josjie wrote:Primary stats
(Health + Magicka + Fatigue)/3 = X1
(Sum of all attributes)/8 = X2
(Sum of all skills)/21 = X3
X1+X2+X3 = ?

Score = ?+?

Sounds good, but about the sum of all skills - not all characters work on every one of their minor skills. However, if we only counted their major skills in the equation, then there would be a lot of characters that would have all 100's for each of their major skills, so that would be somewhat unfair as well. In this case, maybe using the sum of all skills is the right approach, I'm just not completely sure about it yet.

josjie wrote:I'm not sure what to do with your level. A lvl 25 character will have a much easier time than lvl 50 character (with a good build).
And your maximum level depends on your build (for some people it's 48, for others 50-51) so maybe we should just ignore it. Your skills and attributes are more important IMO.

I think Level is somewhat important, but I cannot seem to find a good place where it could fit into the equation for Score calculation. I may end up leaving it out just for that reason alone.

josjie wrote:Best characters
Just an idea: the character names of the top 10/25 (overall rank) have a different text color.
For example:
Josjie

Exploits?
While it is always possible to modify your stats by using the console, you can ask people for a screenshot of their stats before they're accepted in the top 10/25 characters.

To be honest, I'm not so sure about this idea. All of the leaderboard system is manipulated automatically without any human intervention necessary. If we would need to get proof from every suspicious character that makes his/her way into the "Best Characters" margin, that would prove to be quite a tedious task - maybe even impossible depending on how cooperative the character authors would be with us in this sort of situation. While this isn't necessarily a bad idea, I don't think we will focus on this type of thing yet, at least for the time being. I don't want to bring any more attention to all of the false statistics in character profiles that already exist. Cleaning up the false statistics situation will be an operation of its own. Of course, the Internet is a free place and people should be free to post whatever they want (within the limits of the rules they agreed to upon registration here). However, that does not mean that we cannot remove certain profiles from the leaderboards if their stats seem suspicious. ;)

Once again, thank you for your input. I hope to see some more discussion on these new ideas that have been proposed recently in this topic, as well as any responses to what I have replied to for each post.
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby josjie » February 5th, 2010, 7:24 am

Tom wrote:I've been quite suspicious of Dark's statistics, as well. The only thing that prevents me from taking action (removing the profile from the leaderboards/contacting the author) is that many of the statistics actually seem quite feasible, it's just that there are quite a few that seem highly unlikely. Dark also hasn't been updated since July 25, 2009 (the same day the profile was created), so I may consider removing him from the leaderboards in the near future.


There are 2 problems here:
- Sometimes stats are bugged
- Stats can be altered by using the console (so screenshots are not reliable).
A few months ago my lvl 3 character (10 hours playing time) had over one million assaults :shock:.

Tom wrote:I agree that it should cover your primary stats. However, I think things such as Artifacts Found and Nirnroots Found are a bit too random of a statistic to be included in character Score calculation. Maybe not, but for people who aren't going around looking for artifacts or Nirnroots, it could hurt their Scores for no good reason.


While I was writing my reply I first put them in brackets, dunno why I removed them. But I agree that Nirnroots Found and Artifacts Found should be removed.

Tom wrote:I understand your reasoning here. Such stats as these are a bit too random anyway. I was originally considering Fame as a good stat to throw in for calculation of Score, but your last sentence quoted above turned me away from doing that now. The last thing we want is for evil to prosper.


"Good" players will use the Pilgrimage quest to reset their infamy to 0. Fame has a maximum score (100+ or something) but Infamy can be increased by committing crimes. So using the sum of fame and infamy in the character score formula is a bit unfair.

Tom wrote:I think Level is somewhat important, but I cannot seem to find a good place where it could fit into the equation for Score calculation. I may end up leaving it out just for that reason alone.


A lvl 50 character is better than a lvl 25 character because he has more health. Maybe you're right but we definitely shouldn't use your level as a multiplier. Just add it to your total score (score + level for example).

Tom wrote:To be honest, I'm not so sure about this idea. All of the leaderboard system is manipulated automatically without any human intervention necessary. If we would need to get proof from every suspicious character that makes his/her way into the "Best Characters" margin, that would prove to be quite a tedious task - maybe even impossible depending on how cooperative the character authors would be with us in this sort of situation. While this isn't necessarily a bad idea, I don't think we will focus on this type of thing yet, at least for the time being. I don't want to bring any more attention to all of the false statistics in character profiles that already exist. Cleaning up the false statistics situation will be an operation of its own. Of course, the Internet is a free place and people should be free to post whatever they want (within the limits of the rules they agreed to upon registration here). However, that does not mean that we cannot remove certain profiles from the leaderboards if their stats seem suspicious. ;)


Agreed.

#1 overall rank
The #1 character is not the "ultimate character" or something. In that case we already have a winner: High Elf + Atronach. And we cannot add birthsigns/races to the formula (that would be a bad idea).
So the #1 character is the most dedicated Oblivion player who has put a lot of time into completing quests and making his character stronger.
I think "locations discovered" should be part of the formula. Oblivion is about exploring, character progression and completing quests. It takes a lot of time to explore all of Cyrodiil and it might encourage people to ignore fast travel and increase their total score.

Tom wrote:By the way, when you put the variables X and Y in that equation, what values do X and Y represent? I'm a bit unsure about that.


I think People Killed and Creatures Killed are one of the most important stats. By adding them to our formula people can keep increasing their score and there is no maximum score.
Because they're so important they're multiplied (so they have a bigger impact on your score than Quests completed, for instance).

For example:
X=5
Y=2
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Tom » February 5th, 2010, 12:35 pm

josjie wrote:A lvl 50 character is better than a lvl 25 character because he has more health. Maybe you're right but we definitely shouldn't use your level as a multiplier. Just add it to your total score (score + level for example).

That is what I was originally thinking, too. Let's leave it as a possibility to have the Level added in like that, but I'm not sure if Level will ultimately be included or not.

josjie wrote:#1 overall rank
The #1 character is not the "ultimate character" or something. In that case we already have a winner: High Elf + Atronach. And we cannot add birthsigns/races to the formula (that would be a bad idea).
So the #1 character is the most dedicated Oblivion player who has put a lot of time into completing quests and making his character stronger.

I agree 100% with that analysis. So we should try to devise a formula that would create a Score that would properly show the true might of the character. I still like the formula that you posted in your previous post, but now that we've removed a couple of things (such as Nirnroots Found and Artifacts Found), do you think we should change the formula, or just keep it the way it is and take out the stats that were removed in our discussion? Like you said, I want to make Score a good indicator of how much effort a player put into his/her character, and if necessary the formula can be worked on more once we know exactly which stats we wish to include in it.

josjie wrote:I think "locations discovered" should be part of the formula. Oblivion is about exploring, character progression and completing quests. It takes a lot of time to explore all of Cyrodiil and it might encourage people to ignore fast travel and increase their total score.

Understood, that makes good sense. The best characters are well-rounded, and exploration is an important part of that.

josjie wrote:
Tom wrote:By the way, when you put the variables X and Y in that equation, what values do X and Y represent? I'm a bit unsure about that.


I think People Killed and Creatures Killed are one of the most important stats. By adding them to our formula people can keep increasing their score and there is no maximum score.
Because they're so important they're multiplied (so they have a bigger impact on your score than Quests completed, for instance).

For example:
X=5
Y=2

Oh, I see now. I understood why you were multiplying them by X and Y, but I didn't know what X and Y equaled in value. Now I see that you left them as X and Y (without assigned values) because we were to decide what to multiply by later, and you were just giving an example of the formula. All understood now, thanks. ;)
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby josjie » February 5th, 2010, 1:06 pm

New formula: ;)

Primary stats
Health, Magicka, Fatigue, Level, <attributes>, <major skills>, <minor skills>

(Health + Magicka + Fatigue) = X1
<sum of all attributes> + <sum of all skills> = X2

X1 + X2 + Level*4 = X3

Secondary stats
1. Quests completed (A)
2. Creatures killed (B)
3. People killed (C)
4. Places found (D)
5. Oblivion gates shut (E)

A + B*3 + C*3 + D*2 + E = X4

Character score
X3 + X4 = Score

If you want to increase your score, you need to kill more enemies, discover more locations, close more Oblivion gates, complete more quests and maximize your skills and I think that is exactly what we want.
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Re: Revision of the Character Score System

Postby Xavier » February 5th, 2010, 9:11 pm

Wow, thanks for your contribution, josjie. Really good ideas and thoughts. This new score system will be much better.
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